This informal dialog between Gilbert Jorgensen and SDA Pastor Kevin Morgan initially began as a discussion about what constitutes "work" and led into a variation of the question that Gilbert often asks Seventh-day Adventists:

Supposing that the 4th Commandment is treated as a moral law that is still binding:

1. Have you ever known anyone who was disciplined out of a congregation that you attended for Sabbath breaking?
2. Specifically and categorically, what must a person do, or not do, in order to disobey God's holy Sabbath law in such a way that he will be, as a result of his clear disobedience, disciplined out of the church that you have in mind?

Long lost post
There is no requirement for the individual to congregate in order to observe the Sabbath. He can remember its sanctity and blessing by putting aside his regular work all by himself.

Is that how it's done? "putting aside his regular work"? And just what constitutes "regular work"? The 4th commandment clearly states "all thy work", not "all thy regular work". Who decides what constitutes "regular work"? God? Man? The Pastor? The Church? Which Church? Was Jesus and His disciples exempt?

I can see that I need to add the term "regular work" to our Glossary.

Bible verses?

Gilbert

We set aside this regular work that we may do the work of our Father. Regarding the matter of His healing on the Sabbath, Jesus said:

John 5:17 (KJV) My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

We get into a curious position when we say absolutely no work must be done on the Sabbath. The definition of "work," according to science, is "weight lifted through a height." That would include lifting a Bible, lifting a spoon to one's mouth, picking up a baby. This isn't what God had in mind in saying,

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work."

We let go of one "work" that we might have time to do another.

As usual, you have my attention. This is interesting. So we have at a minimum, "regular work" and "not regular work". Your statement, "We set aside this regular work that we may do the work of our Father." is bursting with meaning, the significance of which it will take me some time to fully comprehend.

In your capacity as an experienced pastor, I'm sure that you have dealt with a lot of situations -- some relating to church discipline. It is always unfortunate when these situations arise. They often create turmoil within a congregation, but the scriptures tell us that we have a responsibility as a congregation to confront them.

If a member commits adultry, that must be addressed. If a member kills someone else, they place themselves under the discipline of the church they are a member of. If they broke the 4th commandment in Bible times they were taken outside the camp, and stoned to death.

With your experience, I am sure that you have found that the fourth commandment seems to need the most attention of any of the ten. When you find that a member needs to be disciplined for breaking the fourth commandment what is the process that you follow?

Specifically and categorically, what must a person do, or not do, in order to disobey God's holy Sabbath law in such a way that he will be, as a result of his clear disobedience, disciplined out of one of the two churches that you pastor?

Your friend,

Gilbert

Yesterday and today
Gilbert,

I sense a hidden question behind your question, but I shall answer anyway.

In times past, a person could be dropped from membership for "apostasy" because of violation of the Sabbath. (In times past, a person could also be dropped from membership for having an affair and remarrying.) Such discipline is rarely carried out these days in an official way. Generally we encourage people to continue coming to church, regardless of what sins they have committed (short of one that can land them in jail). The discipline for those violating the commandments in a known way is removal from public office.

Regarding the Sabbath, one cannot hold public office while engaging in their regular business on Sabbath unless they are working in a field of public health.

Feel free to share with me what you think it is. This not a game of entrapment. I want to put all the cards on the table. Ask me what is on your heart. I will answer as truthfully as I know how.

My passion is driven by a desire to put an end to what I perceive as double-talk within Adventism from the top down.

Gilbert

I appreciate your candidness as I try to digest the significance of what you are saying.

Adventism seems to have an obsession with the seventh-day Sabbath that rarely presents itself in a coherant logical well-articulated manner. It comes across ripe with hidden meaning, accompanied by a hidden agenda that becomes more apparent for many after they have joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

There seems to be an equal fervor to denounce anyone who attends a non-Adventist church. My conclusion is that there is a connection.

You specifically mentioned the field of public health. My past experience in Adventism would suggest that you may need more time with this answer. Would you agree?

Gilbert

This is not an attempt at entrapment, but a request for total honesty and openess.

The implementation of discipline you describe above indicates a shift in thinking, or at least application of thinking. Why do you think that is, what do you see as being the transition mileposts, and by what authority?

Does that seem to you like a reasonable way for me to word my question? Certainly it is one of interest, and relevance -- considering the visceral reaction Adventism has to anything that challenges the Adventist way of "believing" in the Sabbath.

When it comes to the actual "keeping" of the Sabbath, the rules appear to become a vast buffet where Adventists pick-and-choose whatever rules fit their mood at the moment.

It would seem that Adventism, for lack of better guidance on how to "keep" the Sabbath might consult with their Jewish brethren who know the Sabbath rules better than anyone else, but just haven't accepted the Gospel of Christ. Wouldn't you agree? Does the Gospel of Christ somehow change the Sabbath so that the Jewish way of keeping it no longer applies?

Your friend,

Gilbert

Who knows best?
There is an assumption in the question you pose that may be hidden from your view. The "Jewish way" of keeping the Sabbath has been conditioned by centuries of tradition. Ask a Jew how he keeps the Sabbath and he won't take you back to Exodus. He won't even take you back to the First Century A.D. At best he can only take you back to Europe of the early 20th Century.

I think I prefer asking the LORD of the Sabbath about what He meant for the Sabbath. Wouldn't He know best what He intended?

For lack of a better way to word it, may I suggest that that my application of your answer leaves me feeling undernourished. In pastoral terms, I don't feel like I am being "fed". It sounds great to "ask the Lord". Where do you then look to find the answer? Ellen White, or the Bible? My comprehension is strained to the limit to imagine that Adventists today have in no way been conditioned, as you put it, to observe the Sabbath differently that those of the 1860s -- 150 years ago! I have seen the interpretation of Sabbath observance change in my own lifetime.

Kevin, I am beseeching you to be totally honest with me and not play these word games, and go through exercises of rationalization.

We have a problem, me with Adventism, and you with explaining how cultural conditioning absolves one of changing their Sabbath "keeping" against a Bible that doesn't change. I don't see it as being productive to assert that the rules for Sabbath "keeping" are based on culture, or time! You simply cannot use that logic without granting me equal right to apply it in the same way!

Kevin, if you were my father, and I trusted you implicitly, would you be totally honest with me, or would you put on your "clerical robe" and give me the "standard lines"?

We are talking here about being totally honest. About being honest enough with ourselves to say, "That explanation is a rationalization rather than the result of facing the problems with meaningful answers".

Kevin, if you were my father which would be more important to you when you look me in the eyes as your son? That you are being totally honest with me about your own concerns and doubts, or that you defend Ellen White at all costs?

I am sensing a dancing around the issues here, and I find that deeply disturbing.

Your friend seeking honest, heart-searching, answers,

Gilbert

None better
Gilbert,

I can think of no better way to understand the Sabbath than to study Jesus' Sabbath observance. I can't get any more honest than that.

Kevin

Kevin! You are being evasive. I know that your memory is not that bad.

We are not talking about how Jesus kept the Sabbath. I can find that out by reading the Bible. I have studied each event involving Jesus and the Sabbath in great detail.

Let me bring back the material I was seeking answers for:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan
In times past, a person could be dropped from membership for "apostasy" because of violation of the Sabbath. (In times past, a person could also be dropped from membership for having an affair and remarrying.) Such discipline is rarely carried out these days in an official way. Generally we encourage people to continue coming to church, regardless of what sins they have committed (short of one that can land them in jail). The discipline for those violating the commandments in a known way is removal from public office.

This is not an attempt at entrapment, but a request for total honesty and openess.

The implementation of discipline you describe above indicates a shift in thinking, or at least application of thinking.

1.Why do you think that is?
2. What do you see as being the transition mileposts?
3. And by what authority?

Kevin, I earnestly want to dialog with you in a candid and honest fashion. You are the one that stated that things have changed from "times past". I'm not going to cut off your paycheck if I don't agree with you. I am just asking, as a son would ask his father, for honest candid answers.

Is that too much too ask?

Your friend,

Gilbert

Jesus' example unsurpassed
If you have read how Jesus kept the Sabbath then you have read the best you can read on Sabbath observance.

How is pointing to the example of Jesus evasive? It is fundamental.

As you know I wrote a book on the Sabbath. I don't know if you have procured a copy, but it is about the value and continuance of the Sabbath. After I wrote the manuscript, I shared it with a little lady who had just started coming to our church because she had discovered the Sabbath in Scripture and called about attending. She said, "I'm convinced, but I want to know HOW I should remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." In response to her request, I drew up the simple points I have posted here on CARM over and over again. It is entitled,

Guidelines for Keeping the Sabbath Jesus' Way.
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=1041761&highlight=guidelines#post1041761

Kevin, I come to you totally serious, and you are playing games with me. Do I need to put these questions in a box so the temptation to wander away from them doesn't get too great?

The implementation of discipline you describe above indicates a shift in thinking, or at least application of thinking.

1.Why do you think that is?
2. What do you see as being the transition mileposts?
3. And by what authority?

Please,

Gilbert Jorgensen

Sociological forces
I understood your question to be about what "work" is appropriate on the Sabbath. That is what I answered. I see from your questions that you are wanting to know about appropriate church discipline for Sabbath violation.

Why has there been a shift in application of discipline? Because Seventh-day Adventism has reflected the shift in discipline of society. Your folks could tell you about being spanked at school. Maybe you got spanked at school. Your kids are not likely spanked at school.

I'm not a sociologist. You'll have to check with someone else for 2 and 3. All I know is leniency is now the American way.

Kevin,

• Is this the answer that you want to respond with in regards to the application of church discipline as defined in chapter 14 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual (http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/church_manual/Seventh-day-Adventist-Church-Manual-17th-edition.pdf)?
• Are you now turning over the church disciplinary aspect of your pastoral duties to the sociologists?
• How does a child getting spanked at school relate to church discipline of an adult member - let's say an erring elder?
• Is that the type of church discipline that chapter 14 is referring to?
• Is that how you used to discipline the adults in your congregation that broke the Sabbath? You spanked them, but you no longer do? At least that would be better than getting stoned to death!

Gilbert

The end of my profundity
I've had a few members who got stoned--but that was of their own choosing!

You may think I am avoiding the question, but I am not. I am answering according to the reality of the Seventh-day Adventist Church at the present time. You asked. I answered.

I am flattered that you think I answer for all SDA pastors in every church, but, on this matter, you will have to contact some others if you want greater accuracy. Perhaps you could ask your old friend Glen. As easily as you got all that information on me, I'm sure you can find him and ask him the same questions.

Have you seen anything in my dialog with you thus far that indicates that I am asking you to speak on behalf of all pastors everywhere? No. In each case it has been a matter of asking you what you personally believe, where your belief is supported from the Bible, and how do you, Pastor Kevin Morgan, implement the "keeping" of that belief and that of your congregations.

As a pastor, isn't it your responsibility to be concerned when church members you are responsible for fail to comply with the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual -- especially as it relates to something as important as the "keeping" of any one of the Ten Commandments? And yet you suggested earlier that the requirements for "keeping" the fourth commandment have changed since the Seventh-day Adventist church was formed in 1863. Can you explain?

Gilbert